livebooks blog

Photo by David duChemin

MIKI:

When I met up with David, I assumed we’d be talking about the “business” of social media. He is, after all, a very successful photographer, author, and eBook publisher because of his robust online community: the Pixelated Image blog and nearly 13,000 Twitter followers.

“Everything I’ve gotten professionally has come through my social media involvement — without exaggeration or exception, literally everything,” he says. But when I ask him about “metrics” and “ROI” he looks at me with a bit of exasperation.

“The most important thing I’ve learned about business,” he explains, “is that every opportunity is the result of a conversation.” The heart of social media engagement is that it allows you to have more conversations with people farther away — that’s it. Trying to sell something through social media, David says, “misses the point.”

“The last thing I want to do is be known as a salesman, because that sabotages the community and then people put up their walls and keep you at an arm’s distance,” he explains. Trying to “monetize” social media, using it to make the sale, means you decrease your conversations, and your opportunities.

So what’s the right way to engage with social media? Here are the five things you really need to know. After David’s top tips, you’ll find an edited version of our conversation, including insights into eBook publishing and why social media doesn’t have to be a time-suck.

DAVID:

1. Don’t forget, the online world is still the real world.

You would never walk into a room and, without introducing yourself, assume that everyone wants to hear about your latest greatest thing would you? Most of us will spend time actually listening to people, finding out who they are, and gaining their trust before we try to sell them our AmWay products. Just because it’s technology, that doesn’t give you carte blanche to abuse people with your sales pitches.

2. Use your strengths

We all have ways that we prefer to communicate. Give blogging or Facebook or Twitter a try, but if you don’t like it, don’t force yourself. Because that’s going to be obvious. Some people are not naturally writers; you’ve got to use your strengths. If writing is really truly not your thing, do a video blog or a podcast. Or maybe you don’t even need a blog. You can use Twitter as an ongoing microblog. It’s still a place that people will come to hear little bits and pieces and connect with you.

3. Be yourself

You’ve got to find your own voice. If that is crass and rude and foul-mouthed, then be that person. Because you want your audience to be authentic, one that comes to you because there’s a genuine connection. I don’t really believe in this distinction between work and play. What’s amazing about that is, if you’re not seeing the division between work and play, you’re also not dividing people into “friends” or “clients.” They’re just people.

4. Be a rebel

It’s so funny, because everyone gets into photography and they want to be free spirits and they would never consider shooting the same photograph as someone else — and then when it comes to the business side of things, everyone is looking for a template. Everyone wants to follow rules. I think building your photography business should be as much an act of creativity as your photography. And by implication, your communication about the stuff you do should be creative. It should be quirky. It should be unique to yourself.

5. Be vulnerable

In comedy, you can either screw up on stage and pretend it never happened — and totally lose your audience — or you can screw up on stage and call the moment. When a joke falls flat, the funniest thing you can do is just recognize that the joke fell flat. Because we all feel like we’ve been there. The same is true in social media: You screw up? You fess up, you make a joke about it, you apologize, you move on. And I think that draws people in. The more human we make ourselves, the deeper the connections we make. And even if none of this ever makes a penny for anyone, I think that’s the ultimate reward.

Photo by David duChemin

Miki: So what was life like before you got your first book deal three years ago?

David: I spent a lot of time doing mailing lists and creating post cards and following up with clients and working on improving my portfolio. All of those keystone pieces of marketing that everyone, including myself, advocates you do. Then all of a sudden I found my activities switched, and I was spending more of my time just engaging.

I’d been blogging for several years, since 2005 but I got into Twitter kicking and screaming. A friend convinced me to get into it finally and the learning curve was just easy. And there’s something about Twitter that’s less unilateral than a blog, more immediate. Little things fly back and forth, and it keeps people engaged in small bursts, which is more like real life. You know, you make a quick phone call to your buddy, you go have coffee, it’s much more episodic than it is like one massive post every week.

The most important thing I’ve learned, someone said to me a long time ago, David, every opportunity comes as a result of a conversation. Every good thing I’ve gotten in terms of my career has come as a result of my engagement in social media. I think that’s because social media is about having more conversations. More conversations, more opportunities. You don’t pursue it because of the opportunities, but they’re a happy byproduct.

My books also came in some sense from having a platform. When you go to a publisher and you say I have a great book idea, the first thing they say is not what’s your great book idea? The first thing they say is what’s your platform, who’s your audience?

I started to realize that the strength of my audience — because it’s large but it’s not gigantic — is that I’m kind of in it for the long haul. I’m not interested in just selling someone a $5 eBook when I could spend time connecting with them and making friends. And I don’t really believe in this distinction between work and play. What’s amazing about that is, if you’re not seeing the division between work and play, you’re also not seeing the division between people in terms of friends or clients.

I know one guy who was initially sort of a fan/follower, he came on a workshop, then he became a friend. Since then I hired his company to do a $10,000 website project. People become friends and they become part of your community and hopefully there’s an honest interchange. It becomes this small-town mentality people used to have. They knew the guy down the street and they’d hire him because they knew him.

Miki: Are there common mistakes people make when they’re first getting into social media?

David: I think the biggest mistake is treating social media like it’s not the real world. Just because it’s technology, don’t treat it like you have this carte blanche to abuse people with your sales pitches. You would never walk into a room and, without introducing yourself, assume that everyone wants to buy your latest greatest thing. Most of us will walk into a room and spend time actually listening to people, finding out who they are, and gaining their trust.

Everyone is talking about monetization, and I’m sure there are industries where that matters, but I think talking about monetization misses the point. If it’s social media, let it just be social. I mean, I advertise our eBooks, but it might be one in twenty tweets, MAYBE that. When a new eBook comes out I say, hey the new eBook is out, here’s the discount code. I might tweet that a second time. But other than that, it’s like, ok, it’s out there, now let’s go back to having a conversation.

When you start looking at people as a potential cash outlet, a potential client, you start kind of writing people off. Because you’re assuming you know how it’s going to pay off for you. The “pay off” might just be relational, it might just be a good friendship. Or you may assume they have nothing to offer you and miss out on an opportunity.

People are pretty savvy. When they feel like they’re being sold to, they tune out pretty quickly. And the last thing I want to do is be known as a salesman. Because I think that sabotages community. Then people put up their walls and they keep you at an arm’s distance.

I want to be the kind of person where people want to have a cup of coffee with me. Instead of being the guy everyone tries to avoid  because he’s just going to pitch me something. “Thanks for meeting me for coffee, you want to buy an eBook? You want to go on a workshop?”

Pursuing community for the sake of community has this fantastic pragmatic spin-off. But the moment you try to pursue the money, it kind of short-circuits itself. It has this natural self-destruct built in that forces you to be real and authentic.

Photo by David duChemin

Miki: What did you first tweet about and has it changed?

David: I think I was a little more guarded than I am now. Then I was trying to come up with things to tweet about and trying to be clever. Now I’ve become more off-handed and quite willing to be a little more me. I’ve become more sarcastic, which I am by nature. But certainly the way I use Twitter has changed in terms of me feeling like I can be a little more casual with it. Not planning so much. When something comes up you just kind of throw it out there.

Again, conversation is spontaneous. It’s not, ok, I’m going to meet with Miki and I’m going to talk about these three things. That’s a meeting, it’s not conversation. Whereas if you have a friendship it’s like, oh, I wanted to tell you this! That’s the kind of stuff I’m more and more tweeting…and the stuff I like to read. When I’m reading people’s stuff, I like the stuff that’s a little spontaneous, a little goofy. It’s a small little window into someone’s life. I think that’s the kind of stuff that builds connections. It makes you feel a little closer to people and again, and pragmatically speaking, the closer we are, the tighter community is, the more we want to support each other.

Miki: Do you feel like your blog has gone through that same transition of you opening up more and being more yourself?

David: When I started blogging, I remember writing something like, “I don’t know if anyone’s ever going to read this, but it will be a nice place to document my journey as I come back to photography.” So right from the beginning, the goal was not to create some thing with an audience, the goal was just expression.

Communication, you need an audience for. Expression, you can be in an empty room. And I think that was kind of the point for me. Just to journal it, to get it out there. So it’s always been pretty open and I’ve never kept anything hidden except really personal stuff.

Being authentic creates connections. And it’s all relationships, it’s just in a different kind of world. It happens through the keyboard and on iPads and laptops, but it’s still relationships. It’s reciprocity, it’s trust, it’s openness, it’s vulnerability.

There was this great TED Talk by Brené Brown on the power of vulnerability. It’s phenomenal. It’s nothing none of us knew, but she puts it into such a concrete sociological terms: vulnerability is a powerful thing. It’s just scary as hell sometimes.

I was in comedy for 12 years, and in comedy, you can either screw up on stage and pretend it never happened — and totally lose your audience — or you can screw up on stage and call the moment. When a joke falls flat, the funniest thing you can do is just recognize that the joke fell flat. Because we all feel like we’ve been there. The same is true in social media: You screw up? You fess up, you make a joke about it, you apologize, you move on. And I think that draws people in.

The more human we make ourselves, the deeper those connections can be. And I think, even if none of this ever makes a penny for anyone, that’s the ultimate reward. We have an opportunity to put our work in front of more people than ever would have seen Shakespeare’s plays in his lifetime. You share the work that you create, which is for most of us why we create it, and you build community and connections. What else is there?

Miki: The big thing I hear is, people are worried it will take a lot of time to be as engaged as they need to be. Do you think that’s true?

David: I don’t think it is. I think you can be very engaged, very high-touch, very warm, very human, without being the guy that sits across the dinner table and is always checking his email and twittering while you are trying to have a conversation.

If you’re comfortable with the technology, when you have a moment, you can just pop open Twitter on your iPhone and create a little tweet. I mean, it’s only 140 characters. It’s only when you think, “Oh my gosh, I have to blog today and I have to tweet today,” when you make it a big to-do items, that it becomes a little intimidating.

If you ask me, is it time-consuming to maintain a friendship with your best friend? No, it’s not time-consuming, because we want to fit it in. Now blogging, I do make sure to get it in a couple times a week if I can. But for me twittering, it’s quick. I sort of launch it to see what conversations are going on, I check in, type out a quick little reaction or retweet something. It’s more conversational. I don’t think most of us would say, oh, I don’t have time for conversations.

You’ve got to find your strengths. If you don’t want to blog and all you want to do is Twitter, then you look at Twitter as an ongoing microblog. It’s still a place that people will come to to hear little bits and pieces and connect with you. If writing’s not your thing, do a video blog or a podcast.

I have a friend Matt Brandon, who does a similar style of photography. I don’t think he’d mind me saying, he’s not a naturally talented writer. What he is good at is audio. So rather than force a square peg into a round hole, he’s just mostly doing video blogging. He also does these Depth of Field podcasts that are unbelievable. Or look at Gary Vaynerchuk, who sort of admits in his book Crush It that he can’t write, but his video podcasts are great.

Not everyone needs a blog or Twitter. It’s a powerful tool, so give it a try. But if you don’t like it, don’t force yourself. Because it’s going to come out. It’s like with me and Facebook. I hate Facebook, so as a result, I don’t post as often to it, I don’t respond as quickly. Anyone that’s watching would pick that up pretty quick. Twitter, on the other hand, I love. I just hate saying it. I hate saying I’m going to tweet you. But it’s better than saying I’m going to poke you.

Miki: Tell me about your eBooks and the Light & Vision online bookstore. Are eBooks profitable?

David: The eBooks are always $5 or less on my site, and last year we sold somewhere around 80,000 of them. Now, I have other authors, designers, a manager, so that’s not $400,000 in my pocket, but the numbers are certainly great.

The first book: I was in Thailand with my buddy Henry, who sells software, and he said, “David you’ve got to get some kind of eBook or something.” I said, I’ve seen eBooks; they’re white papers with lots of highlighting and underlining and they’re all written in courier and just shoot me now.

But he said, David, we’re sitting on this pier in Thailand eating Pad Thai, and I’m making money right now. When I go to sleep tonight, I’ll wake up in the morning and I will have made money. Because people are buying my code. But you have to BE somewhere to make money. If you want to make money on an assignment in Kenya, you have to go to Kenya. You always have to be there, so you’re limited.

I came home and I started thinking, if I could do eBooks my way … I also had intended to learn InDesign, so I gave myself an eBook as a project, because I don’t learn very well unless I have a deliverable. It took me about three days start-to-finish, and when it was done I thought, huh, I’ve got an eBook.

I found a way to sell it online, and I posted it on my blog, and damned if people didn’t start buying it. And then I thought, this is too good not to see if it can’t be done a second time. The first one was called Ten, the second one was called Ten More. I don’t think I’ve since become much more creative with my titles. But people kept buying it.

Soon I realized this is the reason people buy photography magazines, but without all the ads. It was great, big, glossy photographs that could be downloaded and shared. We don’t use any digital rights management, so you can print it, you can email it to someone, you can put it on five devices. And I found I really like putting them together. Then once a couple of them started doing well, I invited some others. My buddy Dave Delnea wrote one called Below The Horizon that did really well. And the whole thing has kind of steamrolled.

by Jamie Rose, Director of Momenta Workshops

When I began my career as a photographer many years ago, I signed up for National Press Photographers Association and first learned about their seminar and convention programs. Being strapped for cash, as most graduate students are, I was informed NPPA gave free tuition to attend the Northern Short Course to students who volunteered for the program. As a volunteer, I attended my first ever NSC in Providence and was hooked.

With free portfolio reviews by some of the industry’s best editors, seminars ranging from lighting to business skills, keynote speakers like Bill Eppridge, Joe McNally and social gatherings until the wee hours of the morning with titans like Sam Abell, I left with my batteries recharged, new photo story ideas and a fresh perspective on the industry.

I’ve attended numerous workshops, seminars and conventions ever since and have always felt it was money well spent. The PDN PhotoPlus Expo in New York is a great place to see seminars, get inspired by amazing speakers and shop for the latest gadgets and gear. Likewise, the Look3: Festival of the Photograph is a wonderful 3 day event held in Charlottesville which celebrates photography from all over the world with three photography legends presenting each day.

This year, I am a guest presenter at the NSC in Providence and will be teaching seminars on The Business of Nonprofits Photography and Photo Mechanic: In the Field. My fellow presenters and speakers are awe inspiring: Matt Eich, David Gilkey, Karen Kasmauski, Amy O’Leary and so many more. The workshops cover audio and multimedia, Final Cut software training, business skills for freelancers, a student’s guide to presenting your work and much more.

As any photographer who has attended one of these seminars will tell you, professional development and networking in person cannot compare to being Facebook friends with photographers or hitting a happy hour every once in a while with other pros. The skills learned and the people you meet at these weekend-, week- or even day-long seminars is invaluable for your professional growth. I’ve made some of my best friends in the industry at these conventions, reconnected with colleagues I’ve not seen in years and seen presentations that reminded me why I became a photographer.

Every year, NPPA and other organizations offer scholarships for students and working professionals. For example, the NSC offers full tuition opportunities for working pros and volunteering in exchange for the attendance fees and there are slots left for 2011. Many other groups offer members a discounted rate and reduced tuition for students. With prices under $500 for many seminars, you simply can’t pass these opportunities up.

Trust me when I tell you: you won’t be disappointed when you invest in your career in this way!

PNY's Marc Ziccardi, Momenta Workshops Director Jamie Rose and WHNPA President and business expert John Harrington post at PNY booth at the PDN Photo Plus Expo October 2010.

By Jamie Rose, Director of Momenta Workshops

Trust me when I say this: I know how busy you are!  There just don’t seem to be enough hours in the week between client relations, editing, post production, invoicing and photographing. However, even the busiest photographers will agree, you still need to make time for professional development. The easiest and most fun way to accomplish this is to get involved with your professional community.

Be a Joiner

Joining a photographic organization can provide you with many professional resources you don’t get by working in isolation. You will have access to other photographers, editors and multimedia producers in your area. You can find mentors, editors, assistants and even job opportunities. Many professional groups have a vast array of educational and learning opportunities normally free or discounted for members. As a former board member of the WHNPA: White House News Photographers Association and the current President of WPOW: Women Photojournalists of Washington, joining a professional organization is a great way to develop your network, expand your leadership skills and meet other passionate photographers.

Think Big!

You can start by getting involved in large international organizations like NPPA, APA, ASMP, ASPP and PPA which provide regional groups, seminars, workshops and learning experiences for photographers from all parts of the country and the world. These groups are great for finding resources for projects you are working on, getting discounts on gear and insurance or even having access to job listings.

Think Globally, Act Locally

Local chapters of these organizations are also a great way to increase your business presence in your hometown. For example, ASPP DC-South is very active in Washington, DC and offers seminars, lectures and membership slideshow events. City- or region-based organizations in your region are another great asset. In many cases, the dues are smaller and the networks are easier to navigate for new photographers. WHNPA , for example, is open to regionally based photographers in Washington but offer wonderful networking opportunities, members-only contests and grants, and local event-based support like Inauguration resources.

Do-It-Yourself

Consider starting your own group or organization. You can create a LinkedIn or Facebook group, like the Maryland Photographer Ladies. Help it grow by offering opportunities to group members. WPOW started as a small group of local female photojournalists who wanted to gather quarterly to share their work, encourage young photojournalists and learn from each other’s experience. Today, the organization has grown into a nonprofit with over 200 members and offers exhibits, mentorship, workshops and educational opportunities for its members.

Take the Lead

After you’ve been a member for a while, consider joining a committee. If you are really ambitious, take the plunge by running for an officer position or heading a committee. You will expand your leadership skills and be seen as a leader by your peers. No matter whether you choose a large or small organization or to create your own, you won’t regret the free time spent on this part of your career. Once you start getting involved, you’ll be amazed at the great experiences, great friends and great connections you will make!

For more suggestions or questions about starting your own organization, please feel free to contact Jamie Rose directly at jamie@momentaworkshops.com.

Photo courtesy Allison Shelley and WPOW. At a WPOW (Women Photojournalists of Washington) quarterly meeting. Left to right: Karen Kasmauski, Juana Arias, Mary Calvert, Annie Griffiths-Best, Aude Guericci and Barbara L. Salisbury discuss how to balance work and family successfully.

The second of two posts originally published on the Professional Photographer Magazine blog. Photographer, Writer and liveBooks client, Lindsay Adler shares her insight in the second of two parts describing the top 10 things to think about when you start using an HDSLR camera.

Click Here To Read The First Part

6. Be Steady: In most cases, hand-holding just won’t cut it. The camera will record every wiggle and breath you take. Consider keeping your camera on a tripod (or monopod), but invest in a head or unit that will allow you to make camera movements (like panning). Another option is a steadicam unit that will give you a more stable image and additional flexibility.

7. Audio: When first starting out, you might want to use a music overlay or a voice-over with your early efforts. Triple Scoop Music is a great resource of royalty-free music for photographers. Once you feel more comfortable, consider capturing audio of the scene, including the subjects’ voices, ambient noise, and more. The more advanced in video you become, the more complex and precise your audio captures will be. If recording audio alone, cars (motor and AC off, of course) make great sound studios.

More »

This post was originally published on the Professional Photographer Magazine blog. Photographer, Writer and liveBooks client, Lindsay Adler shares her insight in the first of two parts describing the top 10 things to think about when you start using an HDSLR camera.

Lindsay writes :

If you have an HDSLR camera, video is a great way to add an extra dimension to your work and even offer value-added services to your clients. Some photographers are beginning to differentiate themselves through their video capabilities, and others are finding video an exciting new realm for creativity.

If you are just getting into video, here are a few basic but essential tips to keep in mind.

1. Don’t Forget the Rules of Photography:Don’t forget everything you’ve learned as a photographer. That the same rules of composition and lighting apply here. Just because you add motion doesn’t mean you should drop in visual quality.

2. Add Movement: We are often used to posing our subjects to capture a still moment in time. If you try this same static approach to video, it might as well have been still images. Add motion, action and interaction to your video. You don’t just have to focus on the movement of the subject, but you can also try moving the camera, like including pans (lateral movement of camera). In video, using zoom may have an amateur look; used correctly, it emphasizes tension or intense focus on a subject.

3. Get the Angles: Try to capture all the different angles for variety. It is often suggested to capture a wide shot to establish the scene, a medium shot to meet the subjects, a close-up to interact with the subjects, and super close-up for visual interest and variety. Instead of zooming in, you capture different angles and draw the viewer into the scene. In many cinematic productions, each shot is only on screen for a matter of seconds, which helps keep up the momentum. Use your different lenses—everything from wide angle to macro.

4. Tell a Story: It is even more important to tell a story in video than with photography because you must engage the viewer for a period of time. When you are telling a story with a plot, quest or some end goal, you will be better able to hold the relatively short attention span of today’s Internet generation.

5. Prepare: Video requires more thought and preparation because the segments must be stitched together into a cohesive piece. Summarize the story you want to tell, and figure out what shots you need to tell the story. Consider drawing out a storyboard to figure out which shots you’ll need, and how you can accomplish these shots.

Watch and listen to Mark Wallace talk about liveBooks, the Vimeo integration and why he thinks it is important to take a close look ‘under the hood’ – and then do something about it.

Mark’s thoughts on liveBooks from Mark Wallace.

See more about Mark and his liveBooks website

I don’t care if you’ve been in business for 2 months or 20 years; this is something that is always of concern to small business owners.  And, for those people who feel comfortable in their pricing, it is a short-lived comfort.  Pricing must always be examined and re-examined.

Photo courtesy of Laurel McConnell Photography

Are you priced appropriately?

Take a look at the following factors and consider how they impact your pricing:

• the median price of photography in your region and target market
• your specialty, your niche
• the value that you bring to the client
• your education, your experience, and your on-going training
• your artistry and talent

But, in the photography world there is one major component of pricing that is often forgotten: YOU. What about your TIME, your LABOR?

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You have a liveBooks website, but are you using your site to its fullest potential? We are constantly improving the infrastructure that surrounds your website, and these 11 features – some new, some updated – will add power and mobility to your online business presence.

And so – on to the features themselves – and why they are important to you:

Email – Your brand needs to be consistent throughout all online and offline channels, and your webmail is no exception. With a liveBooks account, you receive your own branded webmail (http://webmail.your-domain), up to five email accounts and 1GB of storage space. This feature adds professionalism to your business and further unifies your online brand.

Storage space – For each liveBooks website you are allotted 3GB of storage space. This generous space allotment allows you to upload images to the front and back end of your website without having to worry about “going over.”

iPhone/iPad/iPod compatibility – Most elements of your business are mobile, so why shouldn’t your website be mobile, too? Simply check a box in the editSuite to allow customers and potential clients to view your site on their Apple-based mobile devices.

Client Access – If your website is akin to your online studio, then the Client Access section is your presentation room. You have the ability to create a unique post-project viewing experience for each of your customers by creating portfolios with customized logins and personalized greetings. By creating an online experience that is unique for each customer, you will ensure the longevity of your business relationship.

SEO – Everything about your liveBooks site is searchable, from the site and image titles to portfolio names. liveBooks sites do exceptionally well in organic search results, so your creative business can be found in the saturated online environment.

Blog – With a liveBooks Companion Blog, you can create a blog that matches the look and feel of your website, adding consistency and credibility to your online business presence. A blog can help you build an emotional connection with customers, and generate strong leads.

More »

You don’t become known as the “elephant photographer,” receive a “Best of ASMP” award in 2008, and get your series featured on Nikon’s “Learn and Explore” page without being a great photographer. But an outstanding branding and marketing campaign doesn’t harm either. So, how did San Francisco-based fine art photographer Carol Stevenson do it?
She did it with some help from a great consultant, a liveBooks website and tools provided by other vendors, like Moo. You can read our recent case study, in which Carol shares some of her online and offline branding secrets, or hear more about her work with Moo by listening to a snippet from our podcast with Carol below. To listen to the full podcast, click here.

A SPECIAL OFFER FOR YOU: As a “thank you” to Carol for all her help with this case study and podcast, we’d like to extend a special offer to you, which will benefit the Golden Triangle Asian Elephant Foundation, the organization with which Carol works. By signing up for a new liveBooks website for $39 a month, and using promo code lbcarol5, you will save 5 percent on the initial cost of your site. In turn, we will donate 10 percent of the proceeds of that purchase to the Golden Triangle Asian Elephant Foundation.

Carol Stevenson on Brand [Short] by liveBooks

If you’d like to hear the full podcast, click here.

Download the Case Study on Online/Offline Brand that talks more about Emilie Inc and Carol Stevenson.

We recently spoke with Emilie inc. photography founder Emilie Sommer to learn how she has successfully marketed and branded her photojournalism wedding studio over the past seven years. Now, we’re sitting down with commercial advertising photographer Jeff Thayer of  Jeffrey Thayer Photography, a studio based in Los Angeles, California, to pick his brain about how he has integrated his online and offline brands.

Jeff, who is a liveBooks customer who also works with our partners Agency Access and Moo, says, “Having a strong personal vision and having consistency to your brand is what’s going to get you jobs.” He attributes much of his success to his use of Moo business cards. Click below to briefly listen to what Jeff has to say.

Jeff Thayer on Brand [Short] by liveBooks

If you’d like to hear the full podcast, click here.